EP #11 How has the email industry transformed in the last decade

Where to Listen

Despite multiple rumors from significant marketing companies in the past, email continues to stand firm as a dominant marketing medium. This week we bring you another industry leader & chat about how the email industry has transformed in the last decade.

Joining us on the podcast today is Lisa Shosteck, an email marketer and the Director of Email Experience Council (EEC), who also helps manage their board of what we call the Member Advisory Committee.

They discuss:

  • How has email evolved in the last decade?
  • There have been rumors about “email is dead”. Is email still standing strong?
  • What needs to improve in the area of accessibility marketing?
  • What is ethical marketing in 2020?
  • Discussion about ANA’s Privacy shield program
  • Have marketers become more data conscious?

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis Dayman: Well, hello and welcome back to another brand new episode of, ForTheLoveOfEmail podcast by Netcore Solutions. As you know, I’m Dennis Damon, your host of these podcasts and the Netcore team has been working again hard these past few weeks and months to bring us some great stories and guests so that we can bring in advice from all different experts around the world.

[00:00:20] And again, this week we have a phenomenal guest. We are bringing in another industry leader to chat about sort of how the email industry has been transformed just in the last decade. And that’s kind of weird for me to say “decade” because for me, I’ve been doing this around 25 years, and so emails for me have been around quite a bit longer, but just again, in the last sort of 10 years, we’ve continued to see a change in the marketplace.

[00:00:42] When it comes to types of platforms that we’re no longer just doing batch and blast, but AI is, that’s sort of coming into this. Privacy has been coming into this and a lot of them, things that have happened in the last three or four months now with COVID coming into play have also sort of changed how the email industry is transforming and how it’s connecting with brands and with people.

[00:01:06] So to bring some more experts he’s into this, right we’re bringing in a very good friend of mine, Lisa Shosteck, who is the director of the Email Experience Council, as we call it the EEC. And she is there to run the organization, but also manage the board or what we would call the Member Advisory Committee or the MAC.

[00:01:22] And I’m so glad to be talking to you today, Lisa, about all, all these things right now. and that, I’ve had the pleasure of being a part of the EEC since its inception. And, I will just, say on my own, but I was probably the best sure person you ever had, but that’s just my opinion.

[00:01:39]But it’s been a long time since you and I have been able to work on something. So I’m glad to have you here. So welcome to the podcast, Lisa.

[00:01:44] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Thanks, Dennis. And thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to chatting, catching up, and talking off things email.

[00:01:52] Dennis Dayman: Yeah, yeah. I wish we could have been together. We were all supposed to be together just, a month or so ago, for the Email Experience Council’s event.

[00:02:00] And unfortunately, because the times are changing, you guys also, like everybody else had to go virtual. And I think that was probably what, two weeks ago, three weeks ago now, if I’m correct. I am losing track of time now.

[00:02:11] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. Yeah, it was a couple of weeks ago. I know. And we had Nashville as you know, on our target list for a few years.

[00:02:18] So it would have been super fun and it’s always a good time getting together with you guys in person. I know, as you said, we’ve worked together for several years. A hundred, I don’t know, but mainly always virtual. So I looked forward to at least, or annual conferences where we get to hang out.

[00:02:38] So, I’m hoping, “knock on wood”, next year we’re heading to Florida, Bonita Springs, Florida, and it looks like really past resorts. So I’m hoping that this happens.

[00:02:54] Dennis Dayman: That’s, you know what? We all like to have a little bit of fun with it, right? I mean, over the years, Miami, then we had a good one four years in New Orleans.

[00:03:00]And, it’s just always a good time to not only get people together, to share their experiences, but do it in such a way where it’s fun, it’s relaxing and we don’t necessarily have to make it work 24 by seven. And interestingly, what that is sort of an idea, a question or a thought here for you.

[00:03:20] The EEC has been the premier organization for brands and other marketers to come together to get the information that they need to understand what’s happening in the marketplace and the changes that are happening, to get training. And again, we do all this by coming together, even as competitors, right?

[00:03:38] And so, that event has been a tremendous one for us over the years. But, I’d like for you to maybe for our listeners to explain sort of the mission of the EEC and how it’s helping that marketing community. And then from there, maybe, we have a lot of subcommittees, right? We don’t just have an organization that has a conference, but you guys are doing a lot of work in between these events that are keeping people plugged in.

[00:04:00] So can you tell us a little bit about sort of what’s going on with the EEC and, how it’s working for our listeners?

[00:04:04] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. yeah. Really, in a nutshell, I think our mission is, we want to educate, right? We want to knowledge share, connect, email marketers across all sectors. So whether your background is coming from a brand or an agency, or maybe the provider side, or you’re a consultant, we want to kind of make this is not only a sense of community but, an opportunity to connect with other email marketers and to raise email marketing for the industry to drive excellence. And at a personal level, I think it helps people because again, it gives that sense of community and networking, and I’ve heard from several people. 

[00:05:00] And actually, I mean, just independently so it wasn’t like in a room where it was an echo chamber. But I’ve had several people over the years tell me if they, if there’s one thing, if there’s one thing they could take away from the EEC is just that sense of community and connecting with people and making lifelong friends. I would say as a side benefit, it’s the education we’re able to offer, through our webinars, through our annual conference. As you know we’ve done meetups over the years and in cities throughout the US and then, just our online resources as well.

[00:05:31] And then on a professional level, I would say it would help get your name out there, your brand kind of puts you as a thought leader. You can contribute to it like our blog. You can present it on a webinar. We’re really open to hearing new voices and also learning from experts in the field.

[00:06:00] As you mentioned, we do have our membership advisory committee or MAC, that’s our board-level committee. And then we have many subcommittees that you can get involved in as well. We have our education events, subcommittee, and that’s the one that puts on our webinars and poaching clinics to meetups.

[00:06:12]And we have our award subcommittee. Which I know, you Dennis, have firsthand experience, not only, serving on the awards, but also being one of our award recipients. We’re proud to shine a spotlight on you in the industry and obviously leave a Mark on privacy and compliance issues and, really taking the lead on that for the email marketing industry.

[00:06:50] Dennis Dayman: Wow. I think I need to put a check in the mail for that one. That’s a lot!

[00:06:49] Lisa Brown Shosteck: No, not at all. And, what else do we have? We have our best practices and standards committee, which you are, you have your hands in pretty much every subcommittee we’ve ever had.

[00:07:09] Dennis Dayman: I am an opinionated person. So, I don’t mind being there all the time.

[00:07:13] Lisa Brown Shosteck: And a knowledgeable, it’s a knowledgeable thought leader.

[00:07:18] Dennis Dayman: I love that. Well, I know you guys have put out over the last couple of years is even like the legislative global guide, right? We, a lot of us, Matt Bernhard, who’s currently the new chair, for the EEC we’ve, we put out this legislative guide, which helps brand marketers and, other agencies sort of understanding how the compliance issues, whether it’s related to email regulation of privacy, how they do business right now.

[00:07:43] And, we try to keep that document up to date depending on sort of what’s happening.

[00:07:48] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. That’s a crowning achievement for the EEC and a lot of sweat and tears went into that from you guys and I appreciate that. Yeah. I mean, it covers like 77 jurisdictions. Like some countries, I don’t even know how to pronounce, so it’s awesome.

[00:08:10] Dennis Dayman: Well it’s interesting for those that are listening, the email evolution conference, which does happen, at least once a year, is a great thing that anybody can sort of attending, whether you’re a member or not. But when it comes to these subcommittees that Lisa’s talking about, and, or the internal work that’s going on and even access to that guide, it helps to be a member of the EEC to sort of work on, with us. And really what that does is not only just drive membership for us, but it also gets you involved and gets you an opportunity to join these groups. Because this is a volunteer organization.

[00:08:47] We don’t get paid for any of this. Yes. We get to go to great places for some of these trips. But it comes down to volunteer, being a volunteer. Right. And that’s just sort of helping, I think you would agree with that, right? At least in terms of how you have to look at those, being the director.

[00:09:02] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Right.No. Absolutely. And it just, you could, you could be an individual member, corporate member or a sponsor, and you have the same kind of access really, and depending on your interest and your available time, we make it work. Like if you have like an hour a month or an hour every other month, Great.

[00:09:26] If you have 10 hours and want to do an infographic, great. We’re, we’re open to, working with volunteers and it’s really, it’s a partnership. 

[00:09:42] Dennis Dayman: Yeah, it is. Lisa, what I love about you and sort of what you are for, for this industry is, not only as a pioneering woman, right?

[00:09:52] Who is an executive director, for an organization like this, but also, a mother too, right? You have found a place. I mean, an interesting place to share your experiences and to help share your knowledge. What really kind of brought you into this world? I mean, was it by accident?

[00:10:10] Cause I always tell people like, really thanks to my father, who prevented me from going back to school to do my master’s degree and ended up getting me a job and I never left. and, and, I stayed in the industry, which I’m very blessed to have done. What brought you to this?

[00:10:26] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. It’s so funny you say that because I’ve heard from so many people, and we were just actually doing some webinar prep with our current EEC, Pollard thought leader winner. and, she was saying, “I didn’t go to college and major in email marketing”. How many people have we heard say that like that?

[00:10:48] I don’t think that’s a field of study. Although maybe it is, I just feel like, yeah, everyone has the story, how did you fall into email marketing? And then it becomes like their way of life. So like, I started my career working on the Hill for a Congressman.

[00:11:11] And then, about 20 years ago, is when I started my, the Congressman lost his reelection. So I, and the association world working for DMA. And that was, nearly 20 years ago. So yes, I was a child prodigy. I started when I was about 10.

[00:11:30] Dennis Dayman: Like you don’t have, when you’re living in that area, like, DC, Virginia, Connecticut, New York, like I think a lot of people end up in that area just at an early age.

[00:11:38] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yes. yeah. Instead of working on the farm, you work, you work for an association.

[00:11:46] Dennis Dayman: right.

[00:11:47] Lisa Brown Shosteck: But yeah, I started working for DMA, just in privacy compliance, like accountability space, a little bit of your wheelhouse, but really for all modes of marketing.

[00:12:00] the first, my first focus area was teleservices and we were trying to save off the national, do not call lists because DMA had an industry do not call lists. So it was like, why do we need another one? So, but then about eight years ago, I was approached to manage the Email Experience Council.

[00:12:22] So it was my first immersion, really into email marketing. And, the kind of the foundations and what you kind of do is the same in similar, you’re working with experts in the field, you’re working with volunteers managing projects. But it was a different experience working and managing EEC.

[00:12:50] My first impression, and it is still a lasting one is really how passionate you guys are about email, and, really bright and wanting the best for the industry and a really strong sense of volunteerism and giving back to the industry. And again, that, that tight-knit community. So it has been a pleasure we are only falling into the EEC?

[00:13:21] Dennis Dayman: Yeah, because again, I don’t think it’s always about our businesses. I mean, of course, we all want to make some sort of money and do well, but like I had mentioned earlier when we’re all coming together in a lot of cases, we’re also competitors, but we don’t look at it from that perspective. It is this industry, again, I’ve been in for 25 years and almost everybody is you and I are close and we’re friends on Facebook and whatnot and, it becomes a family to everybody, in this industry, especially going through what we’re going through, and finding not just those more connections, but finding those personal connections in here.

[00:13:56]So yeah, I completely agree with you that it’s a great group of folks to be around. In terms of the trends and whatnot, again, my view is a little bit different than yours is obviously, and that RV would be different than our current, chairperson that burnout or even lunch, Schneider who just stepped down as the chairperson.

[00:14:13] But from your eyes, you are now seeing trends, from a different perspective. I see trends from the companies we work with or directly with the companies that were, but you’re seeing trends, shaping up in the email from all of our members. and, again, not just at the EEC, but also the ANA, which is the parent company of the EEC. In your eyes, how has email evolved in the last decade you think? And again, kind of curious, so maybe even get not only a work perspective but even a personal perspective, because again, we are users, right? We are consumers and the work that you and I and others do, not only benefits our companies, but we also look at the experiences that our families and we go through.

[00:14:54] It was one of the points we made in the early days of the podcast when it came to COBIT and our experiences with. The delusion emails we were getting in March and April from brands. It was just crazy. But with your pulse on this, I mean, how has email evolved in the last decade?

What do you think?

[00:15:56] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. I would say the themes are sort of the same, like, so people are looking at practices for lists management, hygiene, how are, how are we going to acquire, engage, and retain subscribers. What are you doing with the data? Are you using it effectively? How are you testing?

Like those kinds of things I think are kind of constants. But I would say that the tactics and new technologies, and like you said, with things like COVID and even diversity issues, those things can help shape what you’re going to be doing to tweak your strategies and maybe some of the tools.

[00:16:45] Just, I was even thinking like, with our awards process, the elements that excited the award subcommittee members, the judges, as they were reviewing the submissions. I think the thing that resonated most with them in recent years is the use of real-time data and how that impacts your email marketing strategy, your ROI, your metrics, your opens and clicks, and all that sort of thing.

That video omnichannel marketing, like or how are you using data in one form to help elevate or engage your subscribers or make offers more, more relevant? I mean, certainly, as you said, when emails started, it was just all batch and blast. And who knows where you got the data or what notice you gave, we’re just getting the message out.

[00:17:15] Now, I mean, just every year, every month, the key is to make your messages more personalized, more relevant, and provide proper permissioning. So even that like, being in that space, that has evolved from, just the batch and blast to the CAN-SPAM.

Yeah. And then moving a little bit more with permissioning, with a castle, you need a relationship with whoever you’re sending it to in some sort of way. And then of course, with GDPR and CCPA, it’s becoming even stronger with work conditioning. 

[00:18:44] Consumers are becoming more focused on their data and privacy around it. And what are they doing and how secure is it and how can I limit that? Yeah. And yeah, I would say if my, my one takeaway if I had to take away from, cause my other hat of, cause I still do accountability compliance issues and so still, helping educate companies and still mediating complaints from consumers.

[00:19:31] Then the number one concern. And this has been since the day I started till now. The biggest concern from consumers is they want brands to respect their marketing preferences. So not only is that good for, from a brand’s perspective, like to, to build their reputation and build consumer trust, but I also will help their bottom line.

Like, like don’t send to people who don’t want to hear from you. Make your offers relevant, make it so you’re sending your messages to the right people. And don’t hide, that’s a big pet peeve of mine. Don’t hide how a consumer can contact you to express their marketing preferences. That’s not okay. 

[00:20:21] Dennis Dayman: And the marketing frustrations. You’re bringing up a very good point is that all the studies that, I have been involved in and the stuff that the EEC has been involved in is that, we find, like you just said, right, we are dealing with a more hyper-aware consumer, right.

And, thanks to all the data breaches and misuse of data and stuff like that by certain platforms, now consumers, before they hit that button, that submit button on the app or whatever it is, they’re going, “All right is this the company that I want to be doing business with? what are they going to be doing with my information?” right. 

[00:21:00]And it’s becoming more and more important to them because they are tired of waking up every single day and finding more and more of their data being, either stolen or in this case, with email marketing they’re getting tired of being almost batch and blast and, we’ve seen that quite a bit this year I think too.

Because when, when companies lose revenue, Oh, it says, all right, I’m not going to give the marketing department as much money, but you need to go do as best as you can or better, even though I’m not giving you money.

And so the first thing that they do is they go revive some email list that’s five years old and they batch and blast. And next thing we know, we’re back to square one. And it goes completely away from what you just mentioned as an expert in this is that you use the data that you have.

[00:21:42] It’s one of the things that we all look at from a platform perspective. I mean, Netcore talks about this with their platforms, with artificial intelligence and using that information to be able to make a more informed decision and that will continue as you and the EEC have always said, send the right message to the right person at the right time. Right.

[00:22:00]Lisa Brown Shosteck: Right. Absolutely. I could not agree with it.

[00:22:03] Dennis Dayman: Well, it’s funny because we keep hearing these, these unfounded rumors, that emails are dead. and, occasionally it still kind of pops up here and there, but, you made some very good points email has said it has changed or evolved.

It has evolved, especially from the platform perspective. I’m kind of curious from your perspective. In the email platforms of the industry itself, what has been the most exciting thing that you have seen or changed in the last 10 years outside of it just being sort of, telling people, batch and blast but what’s been the coolest thing, the UC and the email industry in the last 10 years, you think.

[00:22:40] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah, I would go back to again, the use of the real-time data. I do think that that is pretty cool. if done right and not like creepy,

I’m kind of blanking out an example, but I mean we’ve, we’ve seen that where.

[00:23:11]Dennis Dayman: I was going to say, yeah, I mean, being on the awards committee, right. There’ve been times when we’ve had debates on certain submissions and going, yeah, that’s an everyday use of email or everyday use of data, but that one’s pretty cool. And there were a couple of, one of them that I remember. I think was an airliner hotel I remember was in the travel area.

And we were like, wow, that’s a really good use of that information, that data, right. And, one of the reasons why it ended up winning overall. But, no, I think that’s still a good example is like using the data that you have today, it becomes important, which also means having that white platform and sometimes, having the right platform, to help you make those decisions for you day in and day out. One of the things that I know that EEC has been working on and that we have as well. And the last gosh, I’m trying to think you’re now it’s been what, two or three years. I thought since this project started and I believe Matt and several other folks, including yourself jumped on this project, but accessibility marketing is something that we’ve all talked about as well as being socially responsible marketing too.

[00:24:05] Right. Because we already know that there are about a billion or so users who have some sort of disability in the world today. And some of the work that’s been done within the EEC, do you guys think that enough has been done for this issue on accessibility marketing and what areas have you heard from either those at the sea or other places about what needs to be improved?

Because you’re also not just seeing, by the way, the email side, you’re seeing the Ana site, which does a whole lot more other things. Yeah. Other than just email, but, can any thoughts around the accessibility marketing situation that we’ve been talking about for a while?

Yeah,

[00:24:40] Lisa Brown Shosteck: So you’re right. We, the EEC, they started talking, we started taking, look at it probably a few years ago. and I really am proud of the work or our, again, our volunteers did to bring about two guides on accessibility and one is tailored for really the programmer at your company and then the other one is more of like, your strategic worry, more of that part of the equation. But yeah we’ve done work on it and I think we’ve done a fair amount of work on it. I think it could still use a little more love we could probably do. So there’s, there’s always room.

[00:24:50] Or more work on that. But yeah, our, our best practices and standards committee that’s who put, put out and that, and, Epsilon and, John fees did a lot of work on that and, Mark tally. so, we’ve had some, we’re very fortunate to have some real leaders in the field working on that, but yeah, they put out those two guides.

[00:25:20] We have done webinars on it, blog posts on it. we’ve had sessions at our conferences on that. but. Oh, we always can do more. But I would say, from a company perspective, like when you’re thinking in terms of this, again, just as a good reminder, that you shouldn’t really silo yourself, so, bring together your, its people, your legal, your marketing, your copy people in and, come up with a plan and make sure that we’ve gotten this question. This question has popped a couple of times. Like how can you make your emails accessible when it might be, might not file what your brand rules are or requirements. So obviously that’s, that’s when you either need to pull the team together so that you can, you can kind of meet all those needs together,

[00:26:57] Dennis Dayman: You’re right about that. Yeah. I mean, watching work that you guys have done, between, EEC and ANA, but ANA and EEC have also been a huge promoter, not just of accessibility, but ethical stuff as well. Right. I’ve had the pleasure for several years working with, with Sonny Boone, by the way, folks, it was who is the general counsel of today and a, working with her on the ethics committee at the end, after what was the DMA at the time and became the ANA, what, what sort of things around ethical email marketing have you been sort of seeing around that as well?

[00:27:40] Like if a marketer needs to know ethical marketing for 2020, how, how would you sort of describe what that ethics should be looking like for them?

[00:27:46] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. I mean, just in general, like just, for me, this is sort of common sense, but I would just say, make sure your emails are relevant, that you’re providing engaging and appropriate content.

To consumers, like what you were saying with the COVID, waves of emails, maybe someone had your email like 10 years ago that you maybe did inquire about something. And then all of a sudden you’re getting like a CEO email from them. They’re cleaning their bathrooms.

Like you don’t need that. And if they’re not relevant, then you’re just, again, you’re diluting your brand and it’s, you’re not building consumer trust. Be respectful again, I cannot stress enough that it’s very simple. Honor customer choices on what types of marketing they want to receive. You can tailor it I love the brands that not only say, if you want to opt-out, then they say, well, it which emails, you can tell her it, there’s one brand I will not name, but I think I get like five emails a day from them. It’s necessary.

Yeah. in the end and be accessible. So, not only, as we were discussing, making sure that your emails are accessible so that. All customers can, but also make, make your brand accessible. So if again, a customer wants to contact you, that it’s clear on how they can do it. Do not hide it.

We will find it, but yeah, I’ve also worked with Sunny. I’m on that side of the equation. I know you did work on our ethics policy committee, which helped set our guidelines. and then I’ve also been working on the other part, our other ethics committee, which enforces our guidelines. So that’s where I see a lot of the complainant.

We don’t get that many consumers with questions on email. It’s a few. But we did and EEC, Matt, and Lan put together a consumer guide on email so that that’s also available on our, on the EEC website and the AMA website.

[00:30:35] Dennis Dayman: Yeah, I guess some interaction to be completely honest, using the policy all the time to my advantage, because I, whether it was an email, always, it was also even post-marketing. the AND doesn’t just deal with the digital side of things, but they also talk to marketers about the holistic approach to marketing, and that you should be taking advantage of as many channels as you can, but when they are appropriate. It’s like even now like you’re talking about is that maybe an email is not always the best thing to be sending right now.

Maybe it’s a really simple sort of postcard, right. To everybody to say, Hey, we know that you know that you’re in this, we’re in this with you, but, when you’re ready to return, bring this postcard in and we might give you 20% off. Right. It’s a little bit of an easier way than having to overload people’s inboxes and stuff.

[00:31:25] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. That’s a good point.

[00:31:33] Dennis Dayman: Yeah. Well, so, so on the ethics side of things, it’s interesting because ethics are changing every day. And in fact, they changed 36 hours ago.

Oh, completely. I was up at four in the morning, my time here in Texas. And then, since that period I’ve, I’ve been on, I don’t know how many. Talks and webinars and discussions, and had two back to back ones left before we jumped on the phone here. 

[00:32:00]But with GDPR and CCPA and other data security laws being passed in the last decade or so, do you think a marketer has to be more digital cautious now?

And I’ve, I’ve said this once or twice. where I think that not only does this fall into the privacy professionals’ hands, nor does it just fall into the legal or the lawyers’ hands and whatnot, but all marketers are sort of in this together. And so when you sort of take a look at that from the ethics side of things, I would assume that your experiences with that as well is that yeah.

[00:30:59] marketers need to be doing a whole lot more than just getting the send button now on the, on the, on the send email button piece.

[00:32:35] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. I mean, if a marketer. It has not focused on this issue then they really should be the scale. And we, as we’ve been discussing, consumers want more transparency from brands on what information are they collecting? How are they using it? Where are they sharing it with? How are they protecting it and how can the consumer contact them to manage those preferences. So, and are you collecting the minimum amount of data needed for what you needed for. Like you don’t need to have, or it’s data on your server forever if you’re not using it and it’s not relevant.  

[00:33:35]We’ve seen a lot of high profile companies that have had data breaches, so that really should be. A wake-up call to everyone that you should have your ducks in a row. if you haven’t developed a data breach security plan, do that again, pull all your teams together, and have that ready to go.

So. Worst case scenario, something happens that you have a plan in place, to respond, and effectively and efficiently.

[00:34:00] Dennis Dayman: Right. Right. So you also not only deal with sort of the for-profit side. Right. But the ANA also has a nonprofit Federation. How important is an email to that and there, and their members?

Is it any different? I mean, is it the same.

[00:34:15] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah, I would say it’s the same. I deal with them a little bit peripherally, but, we all kind of work together, but definitely, email has consistently been a reliable and top communications tool for nonprofits. They just use email in a little bit of a different format.

Like they would use it to engage or to fundraise, whereas marketers are using it to sell. So maybe the mission might be a little bit different, but really, it is the most effective and efficient channel. And of course, a lot of nonprofits have very limited resources.

So it is a channel that they rely heavily on and, especially during these times, obviously where everyone’s kind of bidding more, digitally virtually that, even more solids it’s important.

[00:35:20] Dennis Dayman: Okay, well, I got one more final question here as we’re starting to kind of get to our period, and it goes right back to sort of the privacy issue.

You also have a very interesting position there, and that you are also managing the ANA’s privacy shield program and the dispute resolution processes at the ANA. And, as I just kind of mentioned a second ago in 36 hours ago we saw that change happen, where privacy shields were struck down by the European court of justice.

And, that means now we have to sort of wait to see if there’s another mechanism that might come up, replace it the same way that privacy shield replaced safe Harbor. But yeah. You know what hopefully a lot of people have been doing since safe Harbor was struck down is starting to use one of the other two mechanisms that are out there, whether that’s binding corporate rules or model closets and whatnot. But I know that this is very early for you so far. I know that you guys are starting to talk to the department of commerce, that you are a dispute resolution provider, but what have you heard so far?

I mean, just, in generality in terms of what you or the ANA is going to be doing to help, the marketers and brands understand what their decisions need to be moving forward with that ruling.

[00:36:35] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. It could just be crazy times done to us. Never. I fell along the year. Yeah. So yeah, my, my, one of my other hats is managing the privacy shield program.

I helped create it. Under DMA, our dispute resolution program for DMA. And we transitioned when we were acquired by ENA, so have carried over those responsibilities under the Ana umbrella. and, really, as this poor program, I feel like that’s not a dark cloud over it since its inception.

So I’m always kind of holding my breath with it and just, educating companies and reviewing privacy policy statements and kind of making sure that they’re, they’re dotting their I’s and crossing their T’s and have the required elements in place. I mean, from the transition from safe Harbor to prep, several, stronger requirements were put in place.

I can say on my end, I feel like this has been a good program, actually, even under safe Harbor that we don’t see any serious complaints under the program. And even from what I read for, with the court’s ruling yesterday it doesn’t seem like they’re calling out and then correct me if I’m wrong you’re more in the thick of it. but it doesn’t seem like the concern is over a marketer’s compliance with it. It’s moreover, government surveillance and access to data. Does it meet EU standards or they don’t think that what person? I didn’t see that there’s an issue with the marketers. I don’t know.

[00:38:45] Dennis Dayman: Well, you know what it is, just to clarify, part of it is, it is more about sort of the data that’s being moved over to companies and organizations that also fall under the surveillance rules and stuff like that, that, that has surveillance, from law enforcement. 

Because that was the biggest thing that Matt Schrems is bringing up is that yes, Facebook was using the privacy shield and model clauses to be able to move data from the European Union to the US but again, it didn’t give enough protection of European citizens’ data here in the US when it came to overarching government surveillance issues, right. To begin with. And so I wouldn’t say that for most of our members and marketers that are out there.

It probably doesn’t fall under those surveillance rules, issues, and whatnot still means that you can’t use a privacy shield moving forward and that you need to be moving towards model clauses or another mechanism that you haven’t already. But does mean that you also can’t just sign these things, throw them in a drawer and forget about them.

You’ve gotta be looking at them on it on an annual basis and making sure that they’re still good and that you’re following them. So,

[00:39:50] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Yeah. And that, and that’s when I always talk to companies and they say how much. You know how much time and effort is involved. And I said, really the greatest amount of time spent on complying is taking a look at what your information practices are and putting that down on paper, you can’t simply just copy and paste someone’s privacy notice. You need to do an audit and see what you’re doing and review it every year and make sure you’re still doing what you say you’re doing. So yeah, we’re continuing to work with the department of commerce and waiting, to just hear some more words of advice for them, on the next steps. I do know, like under, when there was that kind of purgatory when it switched from when it didn’t quite switch from safe Harbor to privacy shield, the site, the safe Harbor list was still kind of up and running. They were still processing renewals while waiting. So I know the court struck it down, so we’ll certainly, obviously keep monitoring and communicating with our members on the next steps.

But yeah, it does appear that the standard contractual clauses were given the thumbs up by the court. So that could be an interim step for companies.

[00:41:10] Dennis Dayman: Yep. Yep. I definitely would agree with that. Well, Lisa, as we’re closing up here, can you tell us, people can join the EEC or where can they get updates may be on the blog, if, if, and when you guys get some information back to the department of commerce, can you tell us a bit about that here as closing out?

[00:41:30] Lisa Brown Shosteck: Oh, sure. Yeah. so you can go to our website, emailexperience.org, and that has all of our good stuff about how to join upcoming. events. We have a half-day virtual conference coming up August 27th and that’s about data and driving email marketing excellence. So we’re kind of a perfect plug for that.

Dennis Dayman: Go for it.

[00:42:00]Lisa Brown Shosteck: It’s been a pleasure talking with you Dennis and catch them out

[00:42:13] Dennis Dayman: too. Awesome. Mel, thank you for being a part of the network or for the love of email podcast. I’m always happy to be working with you and to continue our relationship and whatnot. And we also hope that this has helped our listeners understand what some of the email coalitions like the Email Experience Council is doing to help.

Your email programs and what you can get from them. It is an organization you have to be a part of. And if you’re not a membership, like Lisa said, visit the website, take a look at them, membership opportunities that are there, there are different types for different levels of engagement, depending on the size of the company and your budgets, but it is good information to have in your pocket to keep up with what’s happening.

Also if you need help, right? Don’t forget that checkout Netcore, which is a global email engagement leader with their AI-powered email delivery and campaign solutions where they are driving ROI or have been driving ROI for the last two decades to all their customers across the globe.

As well as you remember in all these podcasts that talk a little bit about a sort of Netcore’s program, were back in March, they started working on a COVID relief email program, and it’s still going on right now. It’s going to be going until September of 2020. So we’re getting pretty close to the end of it, but it is a program where you could use all their technologies, and send unlimited emails at zero cost until that period and again, using.

So those AI-powered email solutions. Also, don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast on Spotify, iTunes, Google play store or you can visit Netcore.co and you can also find all the episodes on Netcore every week around Thursday. We drop a new one, be able to hear this. So in about a week, you’ll be able to hear us again here. But outside of that, again, Lisa, thank you for being a part of this and I want to remind everybody, stay safe, healthy, and thank you again, for our listeners for being a part of this. And we’ll be back again soon. Thanks, everyone. Take care.